A Real Legal Education?

After decades of teaching theory and then sending law students out into the world with little in the way of skills, law schools are beginning to use medical school as a model. Law schools across the country are seeing sharp drops in applications. Firms are not hiring. Many lawyers are looking for work or working outside of their field.

My law school had many externship programs, where students could gain real world experience. Other law schools are expanding that and trying to add programs similar to medical school residencies. It is a great idea. Being a lawyer is more than just knowing what the rule against perpetuities is (if you have to ask, you don't want to know what it is). It's about running a law practice, managing clients, drafting legal paperwork, and learning a business. What client wants to be their lawyer's first case?

The law school paradigm needs to shift towards a more practical base. Arizona State's plan is to open a law practice with a supervising attorney and have law students work under that attorney and charge half the rate other lawyers in the area would charge.

It's a great idea in theory. But is it just going to compete for clients now and undercut the market rate of all the law firms in the area? If I need a will drafted and can get it done for half the cost by a law student with an experienced attorney reviewing it, I'm going to be very tempted to do that. It will be easy for these law school firms to do just that because they will be subsidized by the university where a solo attorney must charge a certain rate to pay expenses and make a profit.

It is a great idea and I hope all law schools begin to rethink the model which they have been operating to include more practical experience. Let's just hope they do not force more lawyers out of business in the process. Check out the New York Times article.

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Interview with a Securities Attorney

We turn the site back to Colin Maguire today. He is the Publicity Editor for the Thomas M. Cooley Law Review and soon to be law school graduate. Contact him at maguirec@cooley.edu.

Colin's latest piece is an interesting interview that gives insight into where a law degree can take you. It's not just criminal law and personal injury cases. It is also sheds light on the financial meltdown and how to avoid another one. I'll let Colin explain:


What do we really know about the world of securities and commodities
trading? Given the events of our still young millennium, we probably
wish we knew more about what was actually happening. Yet, we might
wish we knew less about the sometimes unsavory aspects of the industry
itself.

The Thomas M. Cooley Law Review's Colin W. Maguire sat down with Mr.
Joseph H. Spiegel to discuss legal issues in the investment industry.
Mr. Spiegel has represented those on the inside of the industry,
befriended important players in government regulation positions, and
now advocates for victims of investment fraud. With his wealth of
knowledge, he shares compelling stories, insightful suggestions for
legal reforms, and urges us to help fight investment fraud by knowing
the signs.

Please check out the full interview here.

More from Colin?

Stand Your Ground
The Claim Against Arson Forensics

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Legal Jobs - The Big Firm

A friend agreed to answer some questions about the life of an associate at a large, nationally rated law firm and the interview process to get there.  He asked to remain anonymous.  Much like my job, the bosses have the ability to say what they want.  Those trying to get there, need to be more careful.  Here are some of my questions and his responses:

1) Describe the typical interview process

Coming out of law school, it is typically a multi-round, multiple-day process. It generally begins with an on-campus interview with attorneys who graduate from your law school. This round of interviews is done to whittle down the list of potential candidates. If you are selected for a follow-up interview, you are invited to the firm's offices for a series of interviews with various attorneys from across the firm. In my experience, this part of the process usually is completed in one day, but can sometimes take longer, depending upon scheduling and the position involved.

2) What kind of credentials are major firms looking for? 

The academic credentials sought include graduation from a respected law school, solid grades, law review, and participation in other extracurriculars, such as moot court or mock trial. 

The intangibles that are sought include a keen intellect, varied outside interests, an engaging personality, and a strong work ethic.

3) Can you negotiate salary?

Typically not right out of law school. Most big firms have a set starting salary that they are reluctant to modify. After completing your first year (and each year after that), however, there is an opportunity to receive raises that vary based on your performance. There are generally more opportunities to negotiate your compensation the longer you have been practicing. 

4) What kind of hours are expected? (Billable and office hours)

In virtually every large firm of which I am aware, there is a minimum billable hour requirement (which tends to range from 1700 to 1900 annually). Some firms also have non-billable requirements or goals for certain activities, such as marketing and pro bono representations. 

Office hour requirements vary by firm, and even by department. My personal experience is that there is a lot of flexibility in this regard. If you are up before the sun, you can arrive at work at 6:30 am and leave on the earlier side in the evening. If you are more of a night owl, you can come in mid-morning and leave later in the evening. But this flexibility is not unlimited.  Partners expect associates to be available during the core of the business day, Monday through Friday. Also, do not expect a 9 to 5, no weekend schedule. Such hours are ordinary course for new associates in large firms.

(Editor's Note - 1900 billable hours a year equates to 38 billable hours per week, assuming two weeks vacation a year.  That means in every work week, an associate must bill at least 38 hours to a client for work they have done).

5) Can you branch out from your department and try other types of law?

To some extent. Newer attorneys are generally encouraged to develop their own niche. To the extent this overlaps with work performed by other groups or implicates other areas of law, newer attorneys are free, and usually encouraged, to pursue it.  By contrast, it is rare to start in one area of law within a firm (e.g., tax) and end up in a different area (e.g., litigation) within the same firm. Once you are an associate attorney in one department, it is difficult to shift to an unrelated group. 

6) How does a summer internship compare with associate life?

No comparison. The summer associate program is designed to be fun for the summer associate as well as the attorneys at the firm who are involved with it. You can expect to perform some work (the level of work will vary depending on the firm), but every summer associate can expect to attend numerous meals, events, and cultural activities during their summer associate experience. 

The real work begins once you have completed the bar exam and start at the firm as a first-year associate. Expect this to be much different than the summer associate experience.

7) What is a typical day like?

There is no typical day. Everyday is different in important respects. And no day ever goes according to plan. It only takes one phone call or email to entirely change the complexion of a day. The one constant, however, is the work -- lots of it.

This can be both stressful and rewarding at the same time, but it is always varied. 

8) Advantages of firm life? Disadvantages?

Advantages include the compensation, intellectually challenging work, and ability to work with well known clients. Another advantage is the depth of resources available to you by virtue of working at a large firm. Have a question regarding an obscure tax or employee benefits regulation? Chances are you have a colleague who is an expert and can answer your question in a few minutes. 

Disadvantages include the hours of work necessary to succeed. Make no mistake, most of the attorneys who excel at large firms are workaholics who make tremendous personal sacrifices to achieve the success they have. Having personally witnessed many instances of this, I can say that it can be, at various times, exceptionally motivating and poignantly tragic. To witness the sacrifices some make, and the impact these sacrifices have on families, friends, and loved ones, has left an indelible mark on me. 

9) Should there be a focus on certain types of classes in law school?

While I am no expert on law school pedagogy, I would have benefited from more intensive legal writing courses as well as more classes that focused on the practical aspects of practicing law. Theory has an important place in the law school curriculum, and I enjoyed this aspect of law school the most, but at the end of the day, a law school must graduate practice-ready lawyers who will be prepared to help their clients address real-world legal problems.

10) Mock Trial or Moot Court? And why?

I would do both, if at all possible. I participated in multiple moot courts while in law school (none, unfortunately, with the author of this blog), but did not participate in mock trial. The skills I honed in moot court were practical and skills I applied once I began practicing. But when it came time to undertake my first administrative trial, I felt unprepared. Presenting a factual case to a trier of fact turned out to be much different than debating fine points of law before a panel of lawyers acting as appellate judges. So, if I could change something about my law school experience, I would have attempted to make time to participate in mock trial. The practical skills that it builds would have been useful for me to have starting out as a new associate.


Thank you for taking the time to answer some questions, my friend. 

Please feel free to comment or email with any other questions and look forward to additional posts on more careers.

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Job Options for Law Students

We'll begin this series next week due an increasingly busy week.  Have a good weekend.  For now, here's two posts on the topic of District Attorney's to satiate you.

How to Become an Assistant District Attorney
How to Create an Assistant District Attorney

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Is Law School Worth It?

Lawrence Mitchell, Dean of Case Western Reserve University's law school says it is.  Check it out here.

While reading this and checking some old posts, I discovered I've posted a lot about whether or not to go to law school.  So, instead of rehashing old statements into a new post, I'll just link to them so you can see my opinion.

To Be a Lawyer
To Go or not to Go
Be a Student of Loans
Should I Go to Law School

This was prompted by a flurry of recent emails from law students and recent grads struggling to find work.  I've been thinking about adding a law student/recent grad component to the site for awhile.  Any of you readers/followers please comment or email about what you would like to see.  In the next few posts, I will discuss the types of jobs law students can seek and the advantages or disadvantages of each.  Also, most importantly, how to get the job.

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To Be a Lawyer?

This week, CNN posted an article discussing the top 100 jobs in the coming 10 years.  The criteria seem to be salary, market growth, personal satisfaction, stress level, benefit to society, and flexibility.

The winner?  Biomedical Engineering.  A lawyer was not on the list, which was made up mostly of science, computer, research, and health care jobs.  This is another factor to weigh for those considering law school.  There is a saturated lawyer market, stagnant salaries, and limited growth right now.

Also interesting, there were no public servant jobs, like teaching, on the list.  Since I am both a lawyer and public servant things do not bode well for me apparently.

Check out the article here. 

More about this topic:

Be a Student of Loans
Should I Go to Law School?
To Go or Not to Go

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Be a Student of Loans

Staring down the barrel of well over six figures in debt while holding a government salary will alter your perspective on debt.  The restless nights hoping they don't cash your rent check until payday.  The daytime worries about where you'll get money for Christmas.  I didn't appreciate what debt can do to a person until I decided to take care of it.

College is expensive.  So is law school.  The government and the universities have made it easy to finance your education.  Just sign on the dotted line and we'll send you a check.  Don't worry it's not payable until six months after you graduate, when you're making tons of money.

I hope you can see the danger based on my previous posts this week.  (Here and here).  There has to be a better way.

First of all, you have to decide if higher education is the right option.  Are you going to college or law school just to delay the real world?  Do you really want to become a plumber or electrician?  If so, learn the trade.  No sense amassing tons of unnecessary debt.  What about the type of degree?  A Russian poetry major might be interesting, but the only jobs available will be teaching that to college students some day.

Not sure about what kind of degree you want or whether college is right for you?  Try a community college first.  The costs will be low and it will give you a flavor of post-high school life.  Work hard and get good grades and you'll be able to transfer to a good college after one or two years.  And, hopefully, now you'll have an idea of what to study.

Okay, so what about loans?  Every needs them right?  There's no way to get through college or law school without them.  Paying them off in thirty years is normal?  You even get a tax break.

Wrong.

I worked two jobs through all of college and law school.  In addition, I took out the maximum amount of money in loans the federal government would allow.  That means the loan paid for my tuition and gave me some extra money for things I absolutely thought I needed and deserved (a new laptop, a vacation, a night out with some friends).

I was making enough money at my jobs to pay for college at my state school.  Instead, I chose to spend that money on frivolous items and take out loans.  My jobs would not have paid for the entire law school tuition, but it would have defrayed the costs, allowing me to breathe easier when I graduate.

Imagine graduating college or law school with no debt.  What can you do?  Anything you want.  You are not tied to trying to take any job that comes along to pay your hefty bills.  You can take  a shot starting a business or starting your own firm that way.  Or you can take that year doing volunteer legal services in an inner city, on a modest salary, but learning how to be a lawyer.  There is no worry about how to pay the bills so you can do anything you want.  Or, if the job you do accept isn't what you thought it would be, you can leave without a worry about finances.

But you get a tax break for your loans, you say.  I know we're lawyers, but this involves a little math.  Borrowing $100,000 at even 2.5% interest means you pay $2,500 per year in interest.  You can deduct up to $2500 (filing jointly) from your salary at tax times.  That means if you make $100,000 a year, subtracting $2,500 brings your adjusted taxable income to $97,500.  Assuming a 28% tax bracket that means you  would pay $28,000 in taxes on the $100,000 income or $27,300 on the $97,500 adjusted gross income.  So to pay $700 less in taxes, we are willing to pay $2500 in interest?  It doesn't make sense.

As you can see, I am clearly anti-debt.  I'm still digging free from the mess I created.  A few years ago my wife and I compiled a budget and put a plan together to pay off the debt.  In just under three years we have paid off over 50 % of our debt load and hope to have it all gone by the end of next year.  Then, we are free to use all that money to build our wealth, free from sending our money to other people.

There are hundreds of law schools to choose from.  Is a Harvard education and debt bill worth the cost?  Probably if you think you can graduate near the top and want to work at one of the top firms.  But if you want to work for the legal aid society, this may not be a good idea.  What about those tier two, three, and four schools?  Why not choose a public school and the significantly reduced cost that comes with it?  If the schools will get you to the same goal, why spend $60,000 a year when you can spend $15,000?

To recap the week:  1) Work on deciding a plan for college.  If you don't know what to do with your life, try classes at a community college.  Investigate possible careers before choosing a major.  2) Figure out how to pay for college.  Work during the school year and summer.  Strongly consider state schools.  Apply for every scholarship.  There are hundreds out there that are unclaimed every year.  3) Figure out what a lawyer does and decide if you want to do it.  Then, figure out a plan to pay for it.  DO NOT just think everything will work out.  It is a difficult job market and the costs of education are only rising.

I anticipate some debate over some of these views.  Many people believe that you should just make the minimum payments on student loans and invest other money you would use to accelerate your payments.  I disagree, because you just keep that weight of risk hanging around your neck for thirty years.  But I look forward to comments and emails.

Have a good weekend.

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To Go or Not to Go

What do you call a busload of lawyers who fall off a cliff?  A good start.

A law degree means you have passed the bar exam and now will have to tolerate every lawyer joke from every wannabe comedian in the world.  Okay, so why would anyone want to go to law school?  The common perception is that attorneys are a lower form of life, waiting to drain unsuspecting clients of their resources.  No one calls an attorney until something terrible happens to them.  Something life changing.

But that's what a lot of us love.  We meet people at their lowest point.  Whether they've been arrested, are getting divorced, a loved one died, or the IRS is calling in a tax bill.  People come to us and we get to use our education and talents to help someone who is truly in need.  Someone who doesn't know where to turn.  Someone without hope.  We get to show them the path to hope.  How to protect an estate for their children.  How to handle an arrest with dignity.  How to settle a divorce and help their children.  We become the intermediary for what is bad in someone's life.

It is a truly noble calling.  Everyone deserves an educated and hard-working attorney. 

At risk of upsetting law school admissions across the country, let's get one thing straight.  Not everyone should go to law school.  Heck, not everyone needs to go to college (but that's more of a student loan issue I'll discuss later this week).  I know we are a nation of "we can achieve anything we set our mind to", but that doesn't mean we should always do it.

There are many things a law degree can do.  It will give you an advanced degree.  It will change your way of thinking through problems.  It will allow access to jobs otherwise unavailable. 

There are many things a law degree does not do.  Provide you a job.  Guarantee you will pass the bar exam.  Pay your student loans.  Show you how to live your life. 

We spend three years in law school reading, studying, highlighting unimportant details in textbooks, and then it's time for the real world.  Time to get a job.  What's the plan?  What's the strategy?  Do we treat job hunting like hunting with a shotgun?  Fire  and spray shots everywhere, hoping something will hit a target.  Or a rifle?  Fire and aim at a very specific target, but risk losing out on other jobs if your one goal doesn't work out?

The legal profession is different now than even ten years ago.  Law schools churn out newly minted lawyers every year.  Where do they go? 

As this New York Times Blog points out, only Nebraska and Wisconsin don't have enough lawyers.  Every other state is running at a tremendous surplus.  That means lower jobs and lower salaries because there are more people fighting for those jobs.  In New York State, we are averaging over 7,000 unneeded attorneys a year!  In ten years, that's 70,000 more attorneys than is truly needed.

Need more statistics?  There are 728,000 lawyers in the U.S. right now.  Divide this by 300 million population.  That means there is a lawyer for every 413 people.  Compare this to biochemists, 25,000 jobs, physical therapists, 198,000 jobs, or even chiropractors, 52,000 jobs.  There are plenty of lawyers.

Combine this with the advent of legal advertising and many legal markets are struggling.  What does advertising have to do with it?  It's the reason people drink Pepsi and Coke, not RC Cola.  It's what they see.  Personal injury cases generally bring in the most money for a firm.  When all of those cases are funnelled to one or two factory firms who spend millions on advertising, the cases for other lawyers dry up.  Many law firms who can't afford billboards and commercials have folded their tents.  I know many lawyers who scrape by on only assigned cases, or who spend twelve hours running through courtrooms across the county. 

What about the high paying legal jobs?  They're out there.  But a person's first year in law school is usually determinative of whether it's attainable.  After the first year, you can apply for summer internships.  The high-paying firms only hire the best credentialed for the summer.  Then, new associates are picked from the summer interns.  These jobs are difficult to get. 

If you are lucky enough to get one, please don't fall into the golden handcuff trap.  New attorneys spend years without making money.  When that first big paycheck comes in, a spending spree is in order, right?  New car?  House?  Eat out every night?  Be careful.  A big spending lifestyle leads to a reliance on a big earning job.  Big firms are not immune from economic downturns.  Big firms also require big billable hour requirements, requiring six or seven days a week in the office at some places.  This leads to high burn-out.  When the associate decides he's had enough in two years, they still have large debt hanging over their head and an addiction to a big money life. 

Public service jobs?  You want to help the world?  Please do it, we need you.  But now we get into the debt problem.  That $200,000 degree from the private law school is an expensive piece of paper, especially on a $45,000 per year salary.  The debt limits a person's job options.  There are debt forgiveness programs for certain jobs, but they usually don't kick in until after ten years of payments.  And should we rely on the government?  Programs like these might be the first to go in difficult economic times.

My advice is to be smart about your career selection.  It is difficult to ask a seventeen or eighteen year old kid to decide what to do with the rest of their life when they enter college.  I didn't know and I'm sure I'm in the majority.  But don't just waft through core classes and the easy electives.  Go out and experience what different careers have to offer.  Find out what a person with an MBA really does.  Find out what a lawyer really does.  What about a doctor?

Lead a life towards a purpose.  Once you have done the research on careers, you will be able to choose one.  Many lawyers I know regret the decision to go to law school.  Many don't regret it, but regret the amount of debt they piled up.  There are more still who are happy.

It is your life.  Lead it towards somewhere, before it starts leading you towards nowhere. 

Then, you must decide if it is worth the cost.  Check back for the student loan analysis this week. 

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Should I Go to Law School?

I was watching Madagascar with my nephew yesterday.  If you haven't seen it, it's a movie about some zoo animals in New York City who get released into the wild.  Chris Rock is the voice of the zebra, Marty. 

Marty is the catalyst for the release.  Early in the movie, he is speaking to Alex the lion (voiced by Ben Stiller) about the direction of his life and how he is sick of doing the same thing every day.  At one point during his speech, Marty says, "maybe I should go to law school." 

I was writing this post anyway, but that was a perfect reminder about how many people choose to go to law school. 

I found there are two camps of people in law school.  The drivers and the wanderers.  Drivers know they want to be a lawyer.  Maybe their parents were attorneys.  Maybe they wanted to change the world and thought law school was the way.  Or they had a first career and realized later in life they wanted to be a lawyer.  Wanderers are the Marty's of the world.  They choose law school because it seems like a good option or it's a way to delay the real world for awhile.  I fell into the second camp.

Lawyers are like any other people.  Some are good, some are bad.  Some are successful, some are not.  And we are finding out that we are subject to the same laws of economics as every other job - supply and demand.  When the demand is high, lawyers have jobs and high salaries.  When demand is low, there is a surplus of talent, unemployment and low starting salaries. 

We are in the low demand and high supply cycle.  The proof is all around us.  Lawyers that have graduated in recent years are employed in factories or doing insurance to make ends meet while they look for a legal job.  Law school admissions have dropped with the increased unemployment and underemployment. 

Making ten dollars an hour on the factory line doesn't help pay off six figures worth of student loan debt. 

So, should you go to law school?  Should you spend three years of your life racking up debt to go into a field that right now has only 55% of its graduates employed in the field after graduation?

This week, I'll discuss the decision, the costs, and the results of law school.

If you are thinking about law school, ask yourself why.  What type of lawyer?  Why do you want to be a lawyer?  Did you hear that they make good money?  Did you hear they live in nice houses and drive nice cars?  Or is it just a decision to delay getting a job while you figure things out? 

My high school history teacher said, "if you fail to plan, you plan to fail."  It's true in life and law school.  If you choose law school, you have to know why.  Do your research on what a lawyer does.  Be proactive.  Speak to lawyers in the community, in different fields.  Call them up, send them an email.  Ask them what they think.  Do they regret the decision?  Are they happy?  What's the work-life balance like?  Maybe you decide you would hate to keep track of every hour of your day so that you could bill a client for it.  Maybe you decide you enjoy special education law.

Options are limitless with a legal degree.  Which is good and bad.  Good because it can open doors to otherwise unavailable jobs.  Bad because it allows people to keep wandering, and never focus. 

The debt is real, even though you won't feel it for six months after graduation.  But those thousand dollar a month payments will come and a job may not.  This is life and you have to make informed decisions.  Otherwise, events control you instead of the other way around.

This week, I'll discuss the reasons to go to law school, how to choose a school, and how to manage the debt.  As always, I'll be honest.  

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